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Engine seems to be running very rich
June 4, 2014
1:12 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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Hi, Just joined the forum so this will be my first go at this as I've never belonged to one before.
Anyway I'm trying to get my ZERO finished off but am having problems getting it running correctly. 2.0 Zetec with GBS plenum and Emerald ECU with GBS map.
Basically it looks like it's running rich. On tickover whith every thing up to temperature the AFR reading is 11.5, when I open the throttle it pops and stutters and the wife sticks her head out of the window and asks if I've spilt petrol.

I used to be quite good with the old fashioned carb things in my day but this EFI stuff is baffling.

I've tried resetting the throttle position etc loads of times but no change. Any ideas would be welcome.

June 4, 2014
1:41 pm
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Bill Rees
Mansfield
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August 13, 2013
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Hi there,
Although Simon at GBS is the best person to answer this question, I had a similar issue ? A bit different from your set up .... I have Zetec, AT throttle bodies, and emerald ECU. When I first plugged everything in and the first start up of the engine everything seemed OK, but when I loaded the "GBS emissions map" into the ECU that's when things went a bit pear shaped, lots of coughing and spluttering ? Then loaded the "Power map" and set the throttle position and once warmed up ran very sweet ! (with a few "pops" from the exhaust when coming off the throttle !) GBS put my Zero through the IVA so made sure it was spot on, and Simon gave me a good test drive before handing it back and had reloaded the "power map" after the IVA test.

June 4, 2014
3:29 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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Hi,

Haven't tried the emmissions map yet so might give that a go and see if its any different.
I'm not yousing an IACV so have the vacuum fitting in the plenum pluged off allthough I can get it running a lot better by letting more air in via this bung.
Unfortunately for me GBS is about 300 miles away.
Anyway thanks for the reply, I'll go to the garage and choke myself some more tonight.

June 4, 2014
4:02 pm
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MidsZero
Melton Mowbray
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There are two possibilities,

Have you set the TPS AT THE butterfly valve or on the peddle? You must set it at the butterfly valve or it won't be accurate.

Or you have an air leak at the seal betwwen the plenum and the head, have the engine running and spray brake cleaner arount the inlet manifold, if it picks up and runs better remove plenum, inspect for cracks or damage, refit with red RTV (use sparingly) between the plenum and manifold to ensure a good seal!

Hope that helps

John

GBS Zero, 2.0 Zetec, Plenum chamber, Emerald ECU. Est 170BHP Kawasaki Green

June 4, 2014
10:24 pm
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Simon
GBS Technical
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Setting up the Zetec Plenum Smile

you may have done some or all of the information on this link

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11598108/plenum%20calibration.pdf

but it is worth stating the procedure in full for anyone else who follows.

Please note this is ONLY for the plenum, and is of no use to any other set up. it also assumes you have the GBS ECU map.

If anything is unclear please contact me.

have thought of trialling remote set-up with team viewer, but as I would not be physically there, any guinea pig, I mean customer Embarassed would have to have some input, but I would like to see if it could be done. Smile

June 6, 2014
12:37 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the advice given, I'll give it another go at the weekend. Must admit that I hadn't looked at the posibility of a manifold leak.

I did follow the proceedure Simon had stated on another post and yes all done at the throttle body.
I got the ECU from Emerald and loaded the GBS maps emailed to me by Richard so hopefully thats correct.

June 9, 2014
12:51 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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OK, spent most of Sunday going through Simons instructions and have to say its running better but still not perfect. Will now check to see if there's a manifold leak when I finaly manage to get to the shops for some brake cleaner.

Sorry for being a 'DUNCE' what is team viewer and what do I need to participate?

June 10, 2014
11:28 am
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Simon
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team viewer should allow someone at a remote computer to control a program on another over the internet, so, in theory, I could set up your ECU remotely, PROVIDED, there is an internet connection available.

There will have to be some input from someone at the vehicle for the physical things like calibration TPS, adjusting the throttle screw, etc but it may be of help to some.

As you have had some success with the instructions, may be it is not necessary at all, and the best help would be to elaborate or modify those.

you mention it is better, but not right, what systems do you have?, I would expect an air leak to be compensated for by using method, but it is always worth checking.

June 10, 2014
4:14 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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Hi Simon,
OK I now understand the team viewer thing and think that this would be posible as I have a reasonable wireless signal in the garage or alternately I can hard wire. Soemthing to think about.

It now runs a lot better and tickover is a lot more stable but I still have hesitation on slow and fast throttle opening, unfortunately I can't try driving as its not a legal vehicle and I don't have any other options. One more thing, if you look at my original blog, on tickover whith every thing up to temperature the AFR reading (on live adjustments page) was 11.5 the target reading was 12.5. Its now reading 15.6 (this is on a narrow band), the target reading is 14.7, so following the instructions has certainly changed things but clearly still not exactly were it should be.

Colin

June 10, 2014
10:33 pm
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Simon
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Sorry I missed the mention of AFR. and did not realise that you were trying to use a Lambda.

Unfortunately the narrow band is of no use at tick-over.

I can not go into a full explanation now, it is getting late, but this site gives a basic explanation as to the operation of lambda.

http://www.enginebasics.com/EF.....asics.html

but there are plenty of others.

If any forum member would like a more detailed discussion I will be happy to oblige, but for now, switch off Lambda, and set up as per instructions.

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June 11, 2014
2:02 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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Woops I seem to have confused the issue now.
Sorry should have said AFR in open loop mode so only using it to see what the AFR reads not to automatically alter the fuel map. I see now that it won't be very accurate. Does it not have to be operating in closed loop mode in conjunction with the CAT for the emmisions test?
I'm sure the problem is just getting this initial setup adjusted correctly.

June 12, 2014
11:34 pm
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Simon
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Open loop is good as it means it is not effecting the map, and you should be able to use the procedure posted.

A narrow band lambda, calibrated correctly and set in closed loop for the area of the map critical for the emission test will help in getting the vehicle through the "fast idle" test, however not on the power map, you must switch to the emissions map, but that makes it harder to make the initial settings.

As I sure you have read, Lambda is the measurement of oxygen left in the exhaust, the theoretical optimum being lambda 1.0 often or stoich, which for unleaded fuel is an AFR of 14.7:1. Lambda is NOT tested at the tick-over part of the test, only CO (Carbon monoxide) and HC (Hydrocarbon).

At the required CO figure, which is controlled by the amount of fuel injected, Lambda is usually about 1.2, way above the scale of a narrow band, and is therefore of no use in that part of the test. I just set it lean enough to get below the standard but rich enough so that it will actually pull up from tick-over for fast idle and the speedo check

You are correct, initial set-up is the critical thing.

what we are trying to do is match the throttle opening to the correct map position.

You may have noted that the Ford throttle butterfly is an unusual shape, and is designed to run full shut using an "idle air control valve" (IACV) to obtain tick-over.

Some customers have had varying success at using the IACV from the Zetec, but we have not fitted it as standard practice.

without IACV you must obtain tick-over by opening the throttle as described, however its shape means that there is very fine air control at small throttle openings, which can make throttle position against map position more critical than on other throttle alternatives.

this is why there is a lot of reference to small turns of the throttle stop, calibration and re calibration in my instructions.

So set up as sheet on POWER map, for test you will need to use the emission map, tick-over CO set for prevailing conditions, you can then set up Lambda to operate at the 2500 to 3000 fast idle part of the test if you wish. but it must be calibrated correctly and the tolerances set so that it gives a stable output to the ECU. I normally just play with the map before going for test, and if out at the centre, Nottingham will allow adjustment.

June 13, 2014
3:08 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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Simon,

Thanks for the very informative explanation about emisions tests and AFR. I can also see that the throttle setup is the critical part of the entire map process.

Hopefully I'll be allowed to 'play' in the garage again this weekend and have another go at initial setup to see if I can get it better than it is now. I'm sure I was fairly close after last weeks attempt but not a 'Carling'!

What sort of cost is the IVA once over and submission GBS provide? Allthough Notts is a long way to trailer a car from Brighton.

Many thanks.

June 15, 2014
12:58 am
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Simon
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unfortunately that is a very variable answer, as the cost is directly proportional to the IVA worthiness of the car.

Each vehicle I am asked to IVA has an appraisal and if necessary a written report and estimate for repair. As there are so many variables with a kit car I tend to air on the side of caution and am likely to give you a worst case price. More chance of it coming down, and less of a shock if something nasty is found during work. I usually allow two hours for inspection and report.

loading, transporting unloading, the test, loading, transporting and unloading, usually is costed at 6 hours, the test has an allotted time of four hours, that said, with a nice example with no problems can go through in a couple of hours, so 6 could become 4 but I quote for the 6, again better you are aware of where it could be, anything less is a bonus.

anything else is down to your preparation. more than happy to help with that, but even the best pictures can not show the full picture.

On the report, I will advise what I feel is required and why, you can then decide to have us carry out the work, at the time quoted or below, or take the vehicle away and tick of the list yourself.

Test fee, registration fee, tax etc, are the same, whether we present or not.

So above is fairly fixed, the cost of work is again related to the time to make good, here you can make a pretty good estimate yourself. You miss the trim off the lower corners of the rear panel, how long would it take you to find the trim, cut it to length and glue it in place? well it is likely to take me the same, I do have some short cuts, so some things may take less time than you think.

A fail would add a retest fee, but we aim to go through first time. All the vehicles, presented this year ,except one, have gone through first time. The "one" was a vehicle built outside the UK with an ECU only available in Europe, we had no software or connection cable if things went wrong, but were assured it had been tuned to meet emission, and yes it met fast idle, but would not return to the tick-over limits in the required 30 seconds, given more time it would, but it failed. The customer supplied the lead, we downloaded the software, small adjustment, and it went through.

I have your lead and software Smile

It is a long way from Brighton, so you must take transportation costs into account, unfortunately I can not be more precise than the above.

June 23, 2014
12:38 pm
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Baldeagle
Seaford, East Sussex
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First a big thank you to Simon for the phone help he gave me last week.

Checked over the TPS sensor wiring as Simon sugested and yes somehow managed to swap the +5v and signal wire over at the ecu plug (I can only claim old age). Changed them over and 'mines a Carling' runs as sweet as a nut.

June 23, 2014
10:40 pm
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Simon
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good, a result. Smile

December 31, 2017
9:06 pm
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Mitch
Gloucester cgmitch@gmail.com
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Simon, don’t suppose you still have the calibration PDF linked above? As mentioned it my other thread something isn’t right with my Rickover and blocking up the small air inlet stalls the engine. After reading this post it’s becaise I’ve not set the butterfly valve I think

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