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Back again! - Mazda Zero
May 12, 2015
11:31 am
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WallerZero
Coventry
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Hi All,

I think I joined this forum when it first started and can't seem to find any of my old posts or even my username anymore so started again!

I bought myself a Mazda Zero Kit shortly after the kit became available in October 2012 and was the first customer built, Mazda based Zero to successfully pass IVA in February 2014, beaten only by the GBS Mazda Demo Car. As many of you know, there were (and still is) a number of teething problems with a new kit and I am always happy to help anyone in the same situation. I wrote myself blog to document my progress and essentially used it as a brain dump for my ramblings, apparently it's been very helpful to a lot of people (incredible as half the time I can't make sense of it myself!) : zachsgbszero.blogspot.co.uk so there it is, have some bed time reading! Feel free to comment your questions or email me on wallerz816@gmail.com if you have anything specific you wish to ask, I'm always happy to help :)

As for going forward, I am going to use the car for the summer with the intention of stripping it down for a rebuild and engine swap over winter, going from the mk1 1.6 MX5 engine to the 2.5 litre V6 found in the Mazda MX6, keeping the kit Mazda based. So watch this space!

Mazda Zero 2.5L KLDE V6
Registered: March 2014.
Build Blog: http://zachsgbszero.blogspot.co.uk/

May 12, 2015
1:59 pm
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NickMilbourn
Hampshire
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Hi Zach, i read you blog with interest while I was waiting for my Mazda GT kit to be delivered! I too had been wondering about the Mazda V6 engines as a future upgrade so will intrigued how you get on!

1.8 VVT Mazda GT Zero - ATR throttle bodies & 171bhp!!
IVA passed Friday 21st October 2016!!
Registered April 2017

May 13, 2015
10:20 pm
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Simon
GBS Technical
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Vee engines can be wide, although my understanding is that the K is 27 deg, not as good as the VR 12 deg but certainly narrower than the more common 45 or 60 deg Vees.

not sure the VRIS will be able to be squeezed in, but non VRIS, maybe.

I would not advise modifying the chassis without talking to Richard, we have altered to suit engine before, but there is often hidden extra bracing to keep strength.

May 15, 2015
6:51 am
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WallerZero
Coventry
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Hi Simon,

The KL-DE engine is a 60degree V6 and has been fitted a number of times into MX5s. From this I can see that with the intake and exhaust there is not much difference and the modified KL V6 is also slightly lighter than the standard 4-cylinder found in the MX5.

My intention is to use bike throttle bodies as the V6 intake is quite restrictive and heavy, and with a better flowing exhaust, a Mx5 version went from 164bhp stock to approx 200bhp.

What sort of bracing would you advise and where? I am going to need to relocate the diagonal bars in the engine bay regardless I believe as this was an issue being found with the mk2 1.8 engine I was going to fit as standard, hence the decision to go for this engine instead as to make the modifications a bit more worthwhile.

Mazda Zero 2.5L KLDE V6
Registered: March 2014.
Build Blog: http://zachsgbszero.blogspot.co.uk/

May 16, 2015
11:20 pm
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Simon
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chassis mods are not a good idea without running them past Richard H. All chassis members are there for a very good reason.

A powerful engine is fine, but if the chassis twists, or distorts, under power, you often loose more than you gain.

True other 7esk chassis do not have these supports, but that does not mean that they are not needed for strength. they may, or may not, have beefed up other components, or are prepared for the chassis to flex in road use, not good for track, or bend badly in an impact.

the bracing you will need to modify is a structural part of the chassis, a triangulation to support other major components. When they are modified in house, for what ever reason, extra bracing is fitted to maintain strength.

I would strongly advise against your plan. UNLESS there is a full chassis upgrade to maintain strength.

from memory Zack, you are, or have, studied motor vehicle design, so will assume you are aware of these pit falls, the above is to warn others that it is not as straight forward as it would appear.

May 18, 2015
7:06 am
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WallerZero
Coventry
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Indeed, I understand its not a simple case to just take bars out and everything has been designed in it's position for a reason. First I would look to relocate the diagonal engine bay bars as seen with those required to fit a standard mk2 engine with original intake manifold as the V will probably clash with this. Further bracing I would consider is a 'X' bar to the top and lower chassis rails in front of the engine as I'd have more space and I'd also evaluate the engine/gearbox mount brackets as well. I am not planning to start my build until after summer so will have plenty of time to pop in and chat to yourself and Richard before modifying the chassis.

You are correct, I graduated last year in Motorsport Engineering where my dissertation looked into designing an aluminium bonded chassis of a 7 style car as a middle ground for steel spaceframe and carbon fibre monocoque in terms of costs and strength. As you point out, it is definitely not a case of welding new bars in place of others and by no means a straight swap to upgrade the power.

Do you know what sort of power/torque figures a standard Zero chassis can take or has it always been over engineered? Do you have a CAD model of the Zero chassis then (just a random thought I had whilst typing)?

Thanks,
Zach

Mazda Zero 2.5L KLDE V6
Registered: March 2014.
Build Blog: http://zachsgbszero.blogspot.co.uk/

May 18, 2015
3:24 pm
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Simon
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I would have to say that the chassis is over engineered for our purposes, and will take a lot of abuse with little trouble.

We do have some big engines in the chassis, Cosworth V6 springs to mind, but to my knowledge, all the mods were designed into the chassis at build by Richard.

There will be drawings, and I know the chassis was lazer mapped a few years back, and it has had some extensive testing to meet some EU regulations in Germany, but I would not expect they will be available to the public, intellectual rights and all that.

it should be easier enough to work out the loadings on each component, at the end of the day, it is a simple ladder chassis. That is why IVA like chassis and loath mono's, they can not assess mono's with out computer generated calculation or crash testing, you can work out loading on a chassis on paper.

I am sure Richard will be interested in your project, so a meet may be the best step forward.

May 21, 2015
6:59 am
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WallerZero
Coventry
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Yeah I have spoken with a couple people running around 200bhp with no issues or modifications and others running over 250 who have had issues and/or subsequent modifications, including the rear section around the diff.

Oh of course I wouldn't expect it to be handed out to whomever asked, it was more curiosity as to how the chassis was designed whether it was done using CAD/CAE packages or assembled as a one off prototype which then formed the basis for a jig to produce on a larger scale following physical testing. Although it would have made a few things easier if there was a CAD model lol. My main thought was it would be easier and quicker to analyse the chassis and then test what modifications would support the needs best. It will probably be something I knock up myself anyway once my chassis is stripped back down to get an accurate model. An ideal world I'd have an accurate model of my car which I can then put modifications and ideas into before going ahead with them :)

I will probably look to find someone local to me to discuss the chassis modifications with as it is quite a long trip up to GBS, made even more difficult if the car is in pieces haha. Obviously, Richard knows the cars best but I haven't have the best experience dealing with GBS in the past so apologise if I appear a little apprehensive to putting effort into working to build up a good relationship again...

Mazda Zero 2.5L KLDE V6
Registered: March 2014.
Build Blog: http://zachsgbszero.blogspot.co.uk/

May 22, 2015
12:28 am
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Simon
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The chassis will take it, and probably more,

but,

lots of BHP does NOT always equate to better performance, all the Zeros have to drive through two wheels. LSD helps, but driver ability soon becomes the deciding factor. it is interesting that many of these big BHP vehicles are noticeable by their absence at track days.

As for your comments about relationship.

I follow a number of web sites, as do others, and am aware of some of the frustrations you have voiced. as others have done, however I have always found there are two sides to every story, two versions of the same events, even two versions of the same conversation. I have played Solomon to many times to know perception is everything reality is second best.

I make no excuses for GBS, we are not perfect, but it is always better to work together, for mutual benefit, rather than apart, where it benefits know one, and cures nothing. We will probably have suffered from your posts, as I know you have.

In an attempt to mend bridges I will extend an olive branch, if you need help and honest advice I will try and give it, although it can be annoying when it is ignored, or put out to question on "other" sites, but thats another subject, it will be forthcoming. I can not speak for the company, but talking often helps, perhaps a visit to the open day, correctly presented, I think everyone is open to new ideas, and relationships.

Bit heavy for a Thursday night, sorry, Friday morning, but better said than not.

Regards

May 22, 2015
12:12 pm
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WallerZero
Coventry
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Hi Simon,

As I have not yet embarked on a track day, however may be looking at some time during the Complete Kit Car at Castle Combe event in June.

I agree, there will always be 2 sides, and acknowledge that some of my comments in the past have probably been uncalled for. Equally I have found GBS defend their mistakes by placing blame rather than finding a solution (I refer to my propshaft incident where I was told I had done something wrong when in fact, GBS had not realised there were various options available), however a solution was eventually reached.

I have seen from this forum Simon and on Rhocar that you are always happy to offer the advice to customers of GBS regardless and I appreciate your comments. You delve into the subject further where others provide a vague answer...

Unfortunately I am unable to make the open day at the start of June, however with the girlfriends parents living nearby, I'm sure I can make a detour one saturday to pop in. I would be interested to hear what modifications would be suggested rather than a "bring it in and we'll sort it". I understand it's all business at the end of the day but the complexity and costs involved with doing it make it more effective having it done locally to me rather than 120 mile round trip.

Thanks,

Mazda Zero 2.5L KLDE V6
Registered: March 2014.
Build Blog: http://zachsgbszero.blogspot.co.uk/

May 22, 2015
7:22 pm
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builder
Lincolnshire
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Hi regards the cosworth v6 it has had power mods now chucks out in the area of 260 and just shy of 500 at the wheel this makes it a drivers car and upsets a few sports cars upto 89 mph I dont feel the need to put on the track it works well enough on the roads

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